Peter Hook Won’t Rule Out a New Order Truce at the Hall of Fame

The second the news dropped that Joy Division/New Order were finally entering the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, fans began speculating about what might happen the night of the induction ceremony. New Order haven’t played with original bassist Peter Hook since 2007, and no love is lost between the two camps. There has been a fierce legal battle, dueling memoirs, and sharp barbs in the press. The Rock & Roll Hall of Fame has seen many warring camps come together in the past, but this one felt like a long shot.

One week after the announcement, Hook hopped on a Zoom with Rolling Stone to react to the honor, look back at the group’s history, discuss plans for his upcoming tour with the Light, where he’ll play the 2001 New Order LP Get Ready in its entirety, and dive deep in the Hall of Fame situation. His feelings are quite complicated, and a reunion feels like somewhat of a fantasy. But under the right circumstances, he’s not willing to completely rule it out.

Congratulations on the big news.
Yeah. It’s been quite a landslide actually. I didn’t realize, obviously, when we were trying to get in it what the feeling would be when we did. I’ve been quite surprised and taken aback. People have been fantastic.

Who told you that you got in?
I can’t tell you that.

Okay. How did you feel in that moment?
Well, we’ve been applying for three years. This was the third. It was third time lucky. We, as Peter Hook and the Light, have been right behind it from the word go. The others, I think, were a bit reticent on two and three. To get it felt a bit of an uphill struggle, shall we say, since the big sites, like Joy Division Facebook and New Order Facebook, we’re not allowed to post on them. We’re only allowed a certain number of posts. And because they weren’t promoting it, shall we say, we didn’t have the impetus that we wanted, shall we say.

What does this mean to you on a personal level?
Ironically for me, my friend is a guy called David Sultan. He’s a pilot for United. He has had a display in the Cleveland Hall of Fame of Joy Division and New Order for over 20-odd years. He’s been pushing it right from the gassroots level. We met at a New Order gig, and he’s become a real close friend over the years.

Really, to be honest with you, I’m more delighted for him than I am for me. The Hall of Fame has told him that they want to extend his collection. He’s a mad Joy Division and New Order fan. He was actually running a Joy Division and New Order website before the band had any social media. 

Like me, in the divorce, he didn’t fare well, shall we say. He got me in the divorce. I was obsoletely delighted for him because he’s been campaigning for 20-odd years. He actually took me there and we took a tour in Cleveland a few years ago. It was lovely to see it. I’m really happy for him.

Where it’s really justified, and I do think that revenge is sweet, is the fact that the fans have put us in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, when the band, or should I say most of both bands, because there’s two of them from Joy Division and three from New Order, couldn’t give a fuck. I’m glad the fans have won. In all honesty, they are the most important people, as any musician will tell you. Sitting there and playing on your own is no fun. Sitting there and playing your music to a load of fans who love your music as much as you do is the best fun. I actually quite like the way that that has turned out.

How did you feel about them combining Joy Division and New Order into one induction? You could argue that they should be in separately as two distinct acts.
Well, I don’t think they’re distinct. If you listen to Movement, it sounds like a Joy Division album with New Order vocals. New Order just found their feet, if you like, and decided to craft a sound that was, in a way, unlike Joy Division. The thing is, if you look at the main writing force behind Joy Division’s music, it’s exactly the same in New Order. That never changed throughout New Order’s life. That’s a fact.

The thing is, but for that grounding between the two bands, it’s absolutely justified that they’re both together. It’s obvious why we gave up Joy Division. We lost so much with Ian’s sad demise. While we didn’t feel that New Order were a difference band, there was a difference, and a big difference.

Even before we split up in 2007, we missed Ian Curtis every moment. It was like a table with a wonky leg. No matter how many bits of paper you shoved under it, it was never as solid as Joy Division. But we did learn how to live without him. We achieved a lot of success, particularly in America. 

When I wrote my book Substance, it came quite plainly that New Order were the band of the 1980s. We started in 1980. We ended in 1990 with the England World Cup song. After that, it was never the same for New Order. Once we split up when Barney fucked off with Bad Lieutenant…. Not Bad Lieutenant. That was the second shit one. When he split off with Electronic, it was never the same. And even though we came back together again and we tried, it was never the same. 

We wrote some great songs, it just didn’d seem to click. The fans stuck with us, which has been great. And even as they’ve been masquerading as New Order, the fans have stuck with them. And God knows why. Really, I don’t understand why. It’s hilarious because they come to me complaining about them. I go, “What the fuck? Why do you think? I’m here and they’re there. Just don’t go! The answer is, don’t go. If it annoys you, don’t go. Don’t give them your money.” It’s a very strange predicament to be in.

You guys have been eligible for 20 years. As you said, you were the band of the Eighties. Why did this take so long?
The thing is, I suppose you have to find the time that’s right for the fans. Maybe they’re wishing we’ll get back together. I don’t know. The thing is, there’s a lot of other bands missing. But that’s what makes it good. That’s what makes it interesting. “Why aren’t they in?” Why did the Cure get in before New Order? I agree with you. 

I suppose in a funny way, it’s a lot like life. Life is frustrating. You don’t get your way. But you have to keep trying. I suppose it’s like that.

It’s a pretty good class this year with you guys, Oasis, Sade, Phil Collins, Iron Maiden…
It’s very English, isn’t it? That’s quite strange. Maybe that’s what they were waiting for. When I think that Oasis played their first ever concert supporting my band Revenge in 1990, I’m like, “Wow. What a strange coincidence.” 

I remember Liam coming up to me at the gig. He was like, “We’ve changed our name.” They were called the Rain Band. “We’ve got our kid now on guitar.” I went, “Yeah, whatever,” as the grizzled, old professional whatever. But maybe, you never know, I could be the next bass player for Oasis.

I hope Oasis comes. Liam keeps joking about it on Twitter.
I’m really looking forward to it for many, many reasons. And from my point of view, not one other member of the band is a reason. 

Do you think your former bandmates are going to come?
I have heard a couple of rumors. But it’s not my place to say. They are big boys. They have a big outfit behind them. They are capable of making their own proclamations.

If they do come, are you willing, for one night, to stand with them at the podium and smile?
[Softly] No. No. Not after what they did to me and my family, no.

You won’t even stand with them at the podium.
No. I won’t stand with them. No.

How would that work if you’re all inducted at the same time?
I couldn’t give a shit. I’m not bothered. You’ve got to have morals.

I get where you’re coming from. But it might make the evening tricky. Do you care?
We like tricky evenings, don’t we? Some of my best evenings have been tricky, right from going to see the Sex Pistols [in 1976] to this. [Laughs] My god, whatever. It’s just one of them things, isn’t it?

If you won’t stand with them, there’s obviously no scenario you’d play with them.
No. None. No, sadly. It’s very sad, but that’s what happened. They did it. They decided to take the New Order name. I felt it was wrong, and I still think it’s wrong.

Let’s say they reach out to you and go, “Look, 15 minutes, for three songs, we want to declare a truce and play with you one last time,” that’s still a no?
Well, that’s slightly different, isn’t it? I haven’t spoken to Bernard for…I didn’t even speak to him. He spoke at me. That’ll be 15 years. Steve and I spoke about four or five years ago, but that wasn’t a friendly moment. And I haven’t spoken to Gillian in 15 years. So, it doesn’t look good, mate. Are you going to have a bet?

Definitely not. But are you saying now you’d consider it if they reached out and were like, “Let’s do it for Ian. Let’s close the book on this.”
As we all know, when you meet…I’m sure there’s someone you can’t stand, and you don’t see him or her or whoever. You think you’d kill her if you came across her. And chances are if she came up and gave you a hug, you’d go, [sweetly] “Ohhhh.” [Laughs] So how the hell do I know? 

If Bernard pops his head around and goes, “Hey Hooky, sorry about that eight-year legal battle that cost you six years wages. I’m really sorry about it. We should maybe have just had a chat about it.” So you never know, dear. Life is full of surprises. I’m sure that could be a lovely one. Let’s face it, you couldn’t have better mentors than Liam and Noel.

They managed to patch it up.
Maybe Liam and Noel could be the intermediaries that you’re looking for. They might be like, “Okay you two. Let’s shake hands and get up there and play ‘Transmission,’ ‘Love Will Tear Us Apart,’ and ‘Blue Monday.’” 

The Half of Fame has been the scene of miracles. Led Zeppelin, Cream, Yes, the Police, and Talking Heads all played in the middle of civil wars.
I think there were a few civil wars backstage and front-stage. Blondie had a good one.

That one was gnarly. They fought at the podium
Well, who knows? We have our feelings, don’t we? You know my feelings. They might want to bring a nice, big bag of cream cakes around. We’ll all sit and have a good cup of tea. Who knows what could happen? [Laughs]

Even in World War I, there was a one-day Christmas truce in between the trenches.
Yeah. It was the infamous game of football. If they want to bring a ball around, go for it. [Laughs]

Again, their mindset could be, “This is for Ian. This is for our legacy. We’ll put everything aside just for this night.”
There’s a lot of bad blood under that very big bridge. The detail of it is horrendous, which nobody knows. That’s the strangest thing. Listen, if they want to talk about it, they’ll do an interview, won’t they? When they see these interviews that I’m doing, they’ll do their own interviews. Maybe we’ll find out then.

If they don’t even show, do you think you’ll play with the Light instead?
I think Oasis will play with me. Definitely. Without a shadow of a doubt, for that first gig I gave them in 1990. Do you know what? All I can say is that plans from my side are underway. I’m hoping they come to fruition. 

The best thing about this is it’s the fans that have done it despite us. How many groups do you know like this? Hundreds. They all hate each other. The poor old Rock & Roll Hall of Fame gets caught in the middle. It’s like WWE. [Laughs]

What happens if they come and want to play with the current lineup? Would you stand in the same room if that happened?
Yeah. I’d love to see them. I could do with a laugh.

It would be your first time seeing them live I’d imagine.
It’s funny. I’ll let you in on a little secret. My wife and I were watching TV one night. It was New Order playing “True Faith.” Oh my God, it was fuckin’ shocking. We were both like, “Oh God. This is awful. How could they?” And all of a sudden, I walked in from the wings. It was me! [Laughs hysterically] How can I judge? I can’t even judge when I’m shit. I was so hoping it was them, but it was actually us.

Why did you speak to Steve four or five years ago?
It was to do with the legal case. 

On the phone or in person?
In person. 

Where?
I can’t tell you. NDA. 

Who should induct you guys?
It’s a surprise. They’re still working on it. I’ve had a couple of meetings with them, and we’ve kicked around some ideas. It’ll be interesting. I must admit, I would have loved Billy Corgan and the Smashing Pumpkins. Ironically, they have a gig in L.A. the same night. They’re doing this festival with Morrissey. It’s about two hours away. My son plays bass in Smashing Pumpkins. It would have been so wonderful to have been able to do that, but that’s not in the cards. We’re working on it. 

I’m sure they’ll get someone big.
As I’ve said, the fans have done this, despite our best efforts. The thing is, I’m just happy to partake in that for all those people that did that for us. When we wrote that music, in Joy Division’s case in the late Seventies, did I think I’d be going into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame 50 years later? Wow. It’s amazing. The thing that’s kept us there is the music is timeless in its appeal to generation after generation.

Generation after generation get solace in Ian Curtis’s words, and the way that the music fitted them so wonderfully. It’s the same thing with our music, some real cutting-edge music in our early career. It seems to resonate with people year after year. 

We’re not the only group. There’s a lot of groups like that where people are picking up. When I came back in 2010, I just thought the audience would be full of fat, old blokes like me. But they didn’t. They had their kids with them. And cut 10 years later, they have their kids. You’re looking at generations of people who love the music. 

One of the great things in this world, at this time, is that parents pass down their music with no embarrassment. In my time, my mother would never dream of going, “Have a listen to this. Let me know what you think.” You just didn’t have that sharing mentality. My mother would never have gone to a festival with me. She never would have gone to a gig. It’s different now. And that difference is wonderful. A family can be a family in many, many different ways.

I think about all those people of different ages at your shows singing along to Ian’s words. I’m sure you often think, “If he could see this…”
His greatest belief was that we were going to be big everywhere. He always used the Doors as an example. “We’re going to be as big as the Doors! We’re going to be as big as the Doors in South America. We’re going to be as big as the Doors in America!” He was a great, massive fan. Jim Morrison was one of his heroes. And whenever we stumbled or had a crisis of confidence, it would always be Ian who would grab you by the lapels and shake you. “You don’t realize what we’ve got here! You don’t realize what we’re going to do! We’re going to be so big!”

He was absolutely right. It’s a criminal shame that he’s not here to enjoy it. But I do believe whenever we go to a different country as the Light and play Joy Division, I always think, “This is for you, Ian.”

We’ve been to Mongolia. We’ve been to bloody Iceland. We’ve been all over South America, North America, Australia. We’ve been everywhere as Peter Hook and the Light. It’s been absolutely fantastic. In Mexico, the fans were unbelievable. And they were so young. They always ask the same thing. “What was Ian Curtis like?” And I’m looking at them and thinking, “He’s the same as you. He was just like you.” It’s weird because he’s frozen in time.

The same as Jim Morrison.
Warner Bros. are doing a big collector’s LP of Joy Division live and Joy Division on record. It’s called The Eternal. I was saying to them, “The only thing missing is the band. Why don’t you get the band to do something, even if its a quick hello, thank you.” The band are missing off this recording completely. 

And I said to them, “How about having a picture of Ian as a 70-year-old man with the rest of us?” It would be something to humanize it. 

I think the biggest problem with us falling out is you never get to celebrate anything to do with Joy Division or New Order. You don’t get to celebrate it since they’re so busy pretending to be New Order, very badly, that it doesn’t make anything work. Everything is just fucked from the word “go.” This is why people like the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, while they give you this wonderful honor, you’re like a naughty school kid kicking their ankles. It’s very schoolyard.

It’s still be a joyous evening.
It’ll be great for you guys. You’ll be watching like, “Oh my God. What’s going to happen?” [Laughs]

Just to clarify since people are going to really focus on this. You’re saying that you don’t want to even stand with the band. But if they reach out and propose a truce for one night, you will?
They’d have to do more than that. They’d have to reach out and try and form some kind of relationship. You can’t just go “truce for the night” after what we’ve been through. If you knew what we’ve been through, you wouldn’t even suggest it. That’s the thing. Nobody knows what you went through. There’s a lightness to it in that respect.

On another note, I’m looking forward to your Get Ready tour with the Light.
The Get Ready tour has gone down so well. It was our biggest-selling LP in America. I didn’t realize that until someone at Warner’s told me that sold better in America than any of the others, even Republic or Technique. Bringing it back to America is wonderful. 

I must admit, because it was Barney and my honeymoon record…it was more or less me and him that did the thing on our own. Steve and Gillian weren’t available at that point, whether it was emotionally or physically. It was neither. Me and him really went to town on it. When I listen to it, which I have not done, I must admit, properly, since it was recorded. I went, “Bleeding hell, we did a really good job.” 

Recording a song for an LP is completely different than playing it live. All we did in the Light is do exactly what New Order would have done. We shorten it, sharpen it, make it more immediate. And it’s been the most enjoyable one to do, and I never expected that. 

I’ve only got two left now. I’ve only got Sirens and Lost Sirens left. It’s quite interesting from that point of view. And it was the two that I didn’t think I’d like at all, which was also Republic, which I really liked playing live. That was really weird. 

We never finished that record. [Producer] Steven Hague finished it. It was a put-together from that point of view. But it was great to play. And Get Ready has been amazing to play. We’ve really enjoyed it.

And I must admit, I do know how difficult my demands are on our audience with me playing the LP in full. We once did Permanent right the way through. That’s 47 tracks at once. I am full of, as my son says, shit ideas. It’s sometimes difficult to do it. But it’s been going down fantastically. 

Well, I’m looking forward to your tour. And I’ll be in L.A. at the Hall of Fame. We’ll see what happens.
Will you be my second, with the bucket and the sponge? [Laughs] 

If there’s ever a biopic of the whole saga, and not just Joy Division, the final scene is the Hall of Fame. It would be great if you all played together. We’ll see.
We will see. [Laughs]