Ab Soul Interview: New Album, TDE, Collaborations

Ab-Soul is giving us a bit of a break from Ab-Soul. The Carson, California rapper’s last album, Herbert, sheds his alter-ego and gives listeners their clearest glimpse of who the man born Herbert Anthony Stevens IV is. And for Soul Burger, released today, he’s decided to rap from the perspective of a new rapper who’s a fusion of Ab-Soul and Doe Burger, his friend who passed away in late 2021. 

The TDE studios served as Ab’s grounds for cathartic creation, as songs like “Peace” show him rapping from the perspective of his fallen friend. He says he crafted the album with a newfound serenity, which is a “testament to allowing myself to just be a vessel and letting it happen.” Over Zoom, He says that in recent years, he’s learned to stop overthinking and being overly intentional. “I want to challenge myself to evolve out of my comfort zone.” 

The major distinction between Ab-Soul and the Soul Burger persona is the latter’s desire to turn up. Ab-Soul has become respected as one of the game’s most intricate lyricists, but he’s having more fun on bangers like “Bucko Jr,” “DND,” and lead single “All That“ with Jason Martin. He says that the creative choice is another homage to Doe, who would playfully chastise him about having a more lively live show. 

“Doe [would be] like, ‘You’re the best rapper and all that. We go out to these shows, and they stare at you in awe, harping on your every word. But we go to these Schoolboy Q shows, and he is having that shit jumping. We got to figure something out,’” he recalls. Ab-Soul talked to Rolling Stone about Soul Burger, his creative process, and his thoughts on Kendrick Lamar’s Pop Out. 

You’ve said, “Ab-Soul is a character; he’s a brand. Herbert is who I really am.” Your last album was Herbert. This album is from the perspective of a fusion of you and DoeBurger. How intentional was it for you to depart from the Ab-Soul character for two projects in a row, or did it just happen like that?
It just happened like that; I’m glad that you brought that to my attention. That’s what I’m saying; I’ve been trying to be less cerebral and less intentional.

In what ways do you feel like being too intentional may have hurt you in the past?
It’s something new that I’m trying. I want to challenge myself to evolve out of my comfort zone. But I’m glad that you pointed that out because I have a fear of being vain because that’s what fame will breed. Ab-Soul was becoming more of me than Herbert, and that began to bother me, and I wanted to make sure that I understood the difference between the two. 

How do you feel like the identity that you assume on a project affects your writing process?
With this project in particular, I literally had to channel my brother, DoeBurger. We went hand in hand, so I could still hear things he would say, how he would say it, his style. I been channeling him even down to the way I’m trying to present myself. I’m wearing braids now. I got jewelry on. I have been trying to channel him in every way that I can, but at the same time, I’m still me. So that alternately creates the fusion, and so that’s been my goal, and I hope that was executed. I hope it’s the album that he would’ve wanted me to make.

So when you got that jewelry, did you specifically pick out stuff that you knew that he would like?
Yeah, in a lot of ways. But I also, especially since my last album in particular, [have] been leaning more on the producers that I work with. As soon as I understood what I was trying to do conceptually, I would tell my homies and my producers to point me in the right direction. I don’t necessarily pick beats anymore.I tell my producers to send me something you need to hear me on and I’m going to do it. I try to get produced in that regard, and then I present the music and lean on the team to give me a thumbs up. I feel like it’s been working for me. I give it to my engineer, and I let him do his thing, and it’s been working for me.

Do you identify with the idea of transmuting pain into different emotions?
Absolutely. That’s what I’ve been doing since day one. That’s what I feel like music has done for me. It’s like bearing your soul, putting everything on the table. It can be therapeutic and liberating, but I knew that’s what it’s done for me as an artist and still does for me as a listener. It lets me feel like I’m not the only one going through these things. It helps me to learn what people are going through, as well as different struggles and traumas that can be overcome.

I think we admire the people, especially in arts, who have overcome the most adversity and show you that you’re not alone. There are songs that we like that we don’t even necessarily know the words or what they’re talking about. It feels good. I don’t know how to explain that. And I don’t try too much anymore. I used to need to know what everything meant or what the purpose was or get to the rule of things. Now, I try my best to let things be, and if I do understand it or comprehend it, then that’s cool. 

I know for this project, you wanted to explore a more upbeat vibe on some of the songs. What was it like recording those? What was the environment that got you into that mode?
It was definitely fun. That’s what I’m trying to chase: fun. I’m trying not to think about it so much and just throw paint. I found that is more natural. I think Jay-Z even said once you start thinking, you’re forcing music, and I don’t think that’s a good thing.

How much of the sample choice on the intro had to do with the original song (“How Do You Want It”) being about mortality?
Perfect example. I wanted the album to come on sounding like Belly, which is one of me and Doe’s favorite movies. Super gangster, super hip-hop. I do love that song, and it was the opportunity to start the fusion where I feel like, if we’re looking in terms of [The Boondocks], I’m Huey and Doe is Riley. And then, I got an opportunity to get my thoughts off. After completing it, everything fell into place. [I realized], “Oh, that’s Soul to Soul. That’s super tight.” 

Then, my girl took me to Barbados, and I went on a vacation kind of for the first time. I was trying to keep my phone off for the most part, but I keep it on for my daughters. My auntie hit me and was like, she saw something online saying that the song was about a near-death experience. This process has been working better for me versus I feel like I would’ve done all that research prior, like, “What does this song mean? Who did it? What year was it created?” Versus just, “Yo, I want this shit to feel like Belly.” I want to sample it and let it come to me. 

On “9 Mile,” you said: “Biggest lie that ever told is that it ain’t about the money.” How do you balance the pursuit of money with keeping your morals and principles?
When I say “It’s time to get this money,” that’s kind of a bar that sounds like this time is for the “Doe,” which I think is cool. But I think the money, to me, that’s placing value on yourself, which I think is important. Be worth it; make it worth it. There’s nothing wrong with putting a high value on yourself, and money is a byproduct of doing a good job.

Those are the numbers. That’s how we gauge how good of a job you’re doing or how much value your product holds. So, I’m trying to do the best that I can and let the numbers dictate the value…I’m in a space where I’m independent; I’m only signed to TDE. Which I hold dear. I think I’m in a great space. Everything is done. Everything that has happened is strictly because of me or Top Dawg. This is not a product of radio programming. I’m not an industry plant or all of these different terms you hear in regard to the industry. I know that it’s us doing it, and that’s dope. 

On “All That” Jason Martin says “The best lessons come from villains and thots.” How do you identify with that line?
That was great, right? Villains and thots, they’ve been through the most shit. Those are the wisest ones. Simple as that. They’ve been through the most. That’s who you want to listen to, it’s as simple as that. That’s a no-brainer.

That said, why do you think in spite of that wisdom, that women who own their sexuality are often looked down upon?
I mean, women have been looked down upon since the beginning of time. That’s going to be a continuous fight. But we got to look at the good things too. We got Kamala running for president right now. He didn’t necessarily have to use the term thots, but I mean, I think it was good creatively for what we were trying to accomplish on that record. That’s some of the lingo we use to describe certain people. Women have a lot of fighting to do and we going to continue to support it. You know I mean? Pay it forward.

The second verse of “I, Myself, and Me” especially resonated with me. You were rapping about being in therapy and trying to just be okay for the moment. I was wondering if you could speak to the notion that healing is fluid; it’s a cycle.
Yeah, I mean, it’s an outlet to vent, which I feel like we all need. I mean, if it’s not therapy, I hope you have someone that you can talk to openly and express yourself. We find ourselves letting these thoughts and emotions fester, and they could come out at the wrong time because we don’t have an outlet to vent. I’m not big on the word mental health anymore. It’s very vague, but I like the term emotional intelligence. I still have a lot of work to do on controlling my emotions. But, like you said, we have good days, we have bad days, and that’s okay. It’s a matter of how you control them and allow them to dictate how you make decisions. That’s very important in our constant pursuit of happiness and peace. I definitely encourage everybody to get into therapy or at least have some sort of outlet to vent.

Can you take me into the decision to make “Crazier” a more minimalist beat? Was it about letting your lyrics take center stage on that one?
There’s a story behind that record. I’ll try to surmise it as best as I can: That was originally a record that JID wanted me on, which we did a while ago. I want to say something while I was making Herbert. It was a feature for him. I did it, and what happened was that Kal Banx, who produced it, ended up selling that beat because he wasn’t sure whether JID was going to use it or not because time had passed.

So JID ended up sending me another record that I was like, “Bro, you don’t even need me on this. What do you mean?” He was like, “Nah, man, trust me.” This song has yet to [be released], but I was like, “Alright, I’ll do it, but you got to let me have ‘Crazier.’” He was like, “For sure.” I knew Kal could recreate [the beat] from the jump. What you come to find is that a lot of producers would love to take some vocals and build a beat around us. This time, he didn’t even have to do that. He was playing records for me, and I heard that record, and I’m like, “Yo, that’s the record. I need that for this.” 

JID couldn’t find his vocal. So I was like, “All right. Just go crazier, and I’ll go crazier, too.” So we recorded it, and I think that’s why he said, “[inaudible 00:42:25] Nas, but I’m more Jay-Z-ier, awkwardly walking back on tracks like Ryan Shays here.” So he walked back on it. It came out, but it ended up coming out crazier, and I’m loving the response. Both of us are. 

“Peace” is one of the songs where it’s most overt that you’re writing from DoeBurger’s point of view. What was it like writing that?
I cry every time I hear it. I opened myself up to being the spirit medium, and it was going to be my voice. Me and Lupe are really close. He and Doe were actually close, and back in the day, he asked Doe for a verse. He kind of doesn’t know if he should rap. He’s like, “You’re really the guy, actually.” You know what I mean? “I want a verse from you.” That was a funny story. 

So he heard it, and he did his rap theory at MIT. His TA, I guess, was working on the AI modules at the time. And he gave me the idea and said, “We could put it together if you want.” I was like, “Man, let’s try it.” And that was created, and I thought it would be dope to merge the songs together so he could have his verse from both. So there you go.

How do you anticipate the more turned up energy on some of the songs will shift your live performance?
I do subconsciously have to go into every song anticipating performance. I don’t even know how to explain how that happens, but energy is always important in terms of performance. Doe [would be] like, “You’re the best rapper and all that. We go out to these shows. They stare at you in awe, harping on your every word. But we go to these Schoolboy shows, and he is having that shit jumping. We got to figure something out.”

So a lot of the songs, when I felt the energy, I’ll be like, “Yeah, okay,” trying to channel him like, “This’ll have ‘em jump.” And if you notice, when I would say DoeBurger [in my previous work], that would be on a record, I was certain that we’d have him jumping. I had to make sure that the crowd would jump for at least one song for every project. 

I’ve seen you reference TDE as the real Black Panthers. What do you think it would take to get the gangs back to their roots as community protection organizations?
It’s happening, to be honest. Slowly but surely. It’s always a new generation who, due to lack of knowledge, don’t know the roots of it. But that’s why I try to use my voice and my platform to keep that spirit alive and give that information because I’m young enough for the kids to still be able to listen to. I think we’re a perfect example. I’m shaking hands with a lot of quote-unquote enemies who, technically, I wouldn’t be able to. I think that’s profound. So it’s happening slowly but surely.

The Pop Out looked like a party onstage. What was it like backstage, from your recollection?
We had our own green room, so I was just taking it all in. It wasn’t until I went out into the crowd, where I felt the energy and got to watch the show a bit from people’s perspective, that I felt what exactly was happening.

And it wasn’t a surprise to me. I was basking in it. I was so needed. It was so historical, and it was on Juneteenth. That was fucking beautiful, man, to do it in the fashion that he did. I mean, he brought people together in the middle of a historical battle that was probably the most historical battle in hip-hop history. He was able to bring people together. What else can you say about that? I don’t expect nothing less from Dot. That’s what we came to do, man. It was an honor and a privilege to be a part of it and to be on that stage with everybody.